Would You Post a Personals Ad in a W4W Forum?

onlinedatingI was a little surprised to find a personals ad from a trans guy in a “women seeking women” forum earlier this week. Each to their own, but it’s not what I’d do. I identify as male and I don’t expect (or desire) “women seeking women” to have any romantic or sexual interest in me. Furthermore, I’d feel as though I were invading their space by posting there.

What do you think? Please leave your comments below.

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47 Comments

  • Keltik says:

    Not any more, in days gone past, yes. But only because I didnt see transguys being catered for.

  • Jack Nacht says:

    I’ll give that a “Hel no.” Lesbian women who want me aren’t the women I want.

  • Aaron says:

    It would depend. If I’m looking for a queer woman then I might peruse because I enjoy queer women and not all queer women are “lesbians.” I know this as a fact because I have many queer women that are my friends who post on “women seeking women” and say they are trying to weed out the creepy men that fantasize about women being with other women. However I would never personally post a personal.

  • Warren says:

    Why do you feel so offended by some other transperson’s identity? If a trans guy wants to date a lesbian, that is fine by me. Doesn’t hurt me at all. Bravo to him for going after what he wants! I wouldn’t dare criticize him for his desires or identity.

    Oh, sorry Joshua, I reread your post and realized you didn’t say offended, you said ’surprised.’ In which case, yes, I suppose it is a bit surprising. But, I too am a fan of ‘each to their own’.

  • Marcus says:

    I would post in women 4 women and I do do it. I am a trans man, and I prefer to date the queer ladies. Nothing wrong with that guys. We’ve got some great trans diversity, let’s flaunt it!

  • Joshua says:

    Thanks for your perspectives! Browsing yesterday, I came across numerous personals ads in W4W forums from trans guys, as well as ads from women looking for trans guys. Something that occurred to me is that if I were posting such an ad, I would probably consider the nature of the site I was submitting it to, to gauge the vibe of the W4W community there: Would my ad be a good fit? Or, would I be better off looking for a more queer-oriented site? The poll’s wording doesn’t take the queer factor into consideration, so thanks again for discussing this in the comments.

  • Jay says:

    I agree with Joshua. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with trans men posting on a W4W site. There are MANY lesbians who love transmen, and I’ve even met some lesbians who exclusively date transmen (figure that one out, but it works out for transmen in the end). I guess it really depends on whether or not you want to attract those women. Some transmen are really into straight women because they want to feel like “real” men. But some (like me) are really attracted to the cute bisexuals and lesbians who are attracted to me.

  • Hank says:

    To those who responded “post on another website” may I ask, which websites are you refering to? Sorry if I seem naive, I’m a little new to my trans self and I need some advice as to where to look for people who will appreciate me… Thanks guys!

  • Joshua says:

    I haven’t used it myself Hank, but I hear TransPassions is good.

  • Hank says:

    Thanks for the tip Joshua!

  • Eliot says:

    Hey all, I’m not a transguy, I just sort of came across this website and this headline caught my eye because of an experience I had a few years ago. I hope you don’t mind if I share this with you?

    I partner exclusively with women, although I am butch and I tend to favor butches. Anyway, one day I was browsing craigslist and a W4W ad caught my eye. The poster said she (sorry, pronouns are tough in this case and I am inexperienced with gender-neutral pronouns, I mean no offense) was butch, dominant, experienced, and looking for a looking for a sub. I was like ‘Fantastic. Finally, the butch dom I’ve always wanted.’ So we emailed a few times and decided to meet. In a subsequent email she mentioned she’d had top surgery and was ‘a little trans.’ Exact phrasing, I still have the email. Well, I’ve partnered with butches who have had top surgery before, would maybe like to have it myself one day, and I said it was no big deal. That was all she said about her gender identity, the rest of what we talked about was the typical bdsm stuff you have to get out the way before you can play with a new friend.

    Long story short, I finally meet this person, and he was totally 100% male-presenting. He had been on hormones for 10+ years, used male pronouns, used a male name. I was really not sure what to say or do. Finally, I just asked him if he was completely male identified, and he said ‘yes, basically, although my queer identity is important to me as well.’ So I asked him why he posted a W4W ad and he said it was because he was more likely to find what he was looking for (a butch or transboi) there. Completely understandable, but…

    I didn’t go home with him that night. We haven’t spoken since. My bottom line is that I’m not attracted to men. We were both calm about it, but the experience left a bad taste in my mouth. On the one hand, he had said he was partially trans and so I felt guilty for rejecting him for being ‘too trans.’ I’ve been rejected for being ‘too butch’ and it hurts; I never meant to do that to someone else. On the other hand, he’d mentioned to me he had had top surgery, so why not mention the hormones? And he’d said he was ‘a little trans,’ which turned out to be a pretty drastic under-exaggeration.

    It was my fault for not getting a picture first and not making it absolutely clear what my limits were in terms of gender. On the other hand, if you’re going to post a W4W ad, maybe it’d be a good idea to use full disclosure about how trans you are or aren’t before you meet the person, and find out exactly where they stand as well.

    Sorry for all the pontification. Hope that was, um, illuminating, and not ignorant and offensive.

  • james says:

    until there are options that include t4w, t4t, or t4m, then i say its kinda fair game to post wherever one feels is the most appropriate to their identity. just be respectful about it, isnt that a no-brainer, sheesh?!?. i guess the etiquette of yr local posting site should be considered… where i live, if yr a queer ftm looking to meet a queer lady, then w4w is where to go. I don’t know how it works if yr a straight ftm looking for a straight lady.
    and also, for those of us who don’t fully pass (by choice or not by choice), then binary-presenting/passing-gender-niche-requirements could prevent us from posting anywhere safely…

  • jbt says:

    No. The secret is in the “W” parts, which a man, generally speaking, is not. And “W4W” actually doesn’t say anything about the space being for queer identified women: it is for women who are seeking women. So men of any variety using a W4W section to troll for queer women is offensive, and kind of creepy in its own way. Another major problem I see with men posting in W4W personals, is the relatively unchallenged censoring and flagging of trans WOMEN’s adverts in the same spaces. At the very least, until all WOMEN are entitled and welcome to post freely in Women’s spaces, men have no business there. Really? Post in M4W if you are looking for a woman to connect with. Shake up that space — at least it’s honest (I.E. you are a man seeking a woman — not rocket science really), and something that is entirely reasonable for a trans man to access.

  • jbt says:

    Eliot, not offensive (to me) at all. Women should reasonably be able to find women in a W4W section on a personals site. When men behave as though they are entitled to take up space where women haven’t even fully had the opportunity to explore and utilize it, there is a problem. An old problem, but a problem nonetheless.

  • Stephan says:

    personally i don’t think FTMs should be posting adds for themselves in W4W.
    if you’re FTM you’re male.
    that would be the same thing as a strait woman posing as a gay man because she has a “thing” for gay guys. once the two meet [if ever] one will probably feel disappointed and cheated. or at least that’s how i would feel if i exclusively dated in one gender and someone of the opposite gender lied to me.

  • adam says:

    i understand the if-you’re-ftm-you’re-male sentiment, but i understand and side with the idea of ftms using w4w as their space. though i identify as trans, i understand that i don’t quite have the ‘downstairs’ that the typical w4m is posting for. obviously this depends on the particular post and what the poster wants.

    mentioning that you’re trans in any posting/reply, though you may not find it necessary, is not going to harm you. neither of you will waste any time with someone you aren’t attracted to!

    as long as openness and honesty is priority, i don’t see what the problem is.

  • Kai says:

    I am FTM and I agree with jbt. W4W sections are for women, and it takes a lot of entitlement for a trans man to post there when trans women are frequently chased away.

    If someone is “trans masculine spectrum” (or whatever terms you prefer) but doesn’t identify as a man, identifies as both, etc., then I can understand posting in W4W. But someone who doesn’t identify as woman/female at all? They’re in the wrong section.

  • Jay says:

    I am a FtM, on hormone and done with top surgery. Physically I am always passed as a man. I always identified as one in the public but I dont mind being ‘out’ to the LGBT community. When comes to looking for friends or partner (am fine with either queer or straight women) I still look into our community group. I tried the straight classified and found out that most of the straight women disappear when the topic ‘queer’ being mentioned. Plus this straight women will start telling their friends to check and be aware of the id/name in the ad. This will lead to straight men writing in trying to be ‘God’ to change you. This is also one of the reason I am not comfortable being ‘out’ to the straight. As for W4W, the most is no response. But of course i will state clearly that I am a FtM/Transmen in such ad.
    By the way, correct me if I am wrong, I dont find any ads for Transmen looking for women or women looking for Transmen in my country or neighborhood.

  • Jools says:

    I am a gay transboi, but I wouldn’t want to meet other women in a sexual content. I feel if a transman gay or not. If they are seeking a girl that should know deep inside that they are either a male or female.. I have never seen myself as anything but male, and all my partners in life have been male…

  • Eamon says:

    (FYI I personally do not go for bodies or genitals or looks. But I do enjoy women more most of the time. Guys have their bonuses too; but I like boobs a lot so generally I date women. Also, I’d never put an ad in one of these things. Also I’m more genderqueer than trans.. But.. I’m leaning towards T and such, as scary as that admission is.)
    SO considering my own tastes are not super-common… I guess it would depend on how far I’d transitioned. I wouldn’t want to offend anyone who WAS picky, so if I hadn’t had bottom surgery I’d advertise in the W4W or W4M column, with a note about being trans… If I had, I’d advertise in the M4W or M4M and add a note about being trans; again avoiding upsetting anyone.
    It’s not because I think your junk makes you a man or a woman, but because I know that some people do, and I wouldn’t want to piss anyone off.

  • Dan says:

    I think I’d post as a guy, but I’d tell the truth. I think that I’d rather look for a site that is women looking for transmen.

  • carrie says:

    Posting there is fine so long as the ad is truthful, and up front. Women searching the W4W section are expecting to find biological women. If you aren’t a biological woman, just say so, so people don’t end up feeling deceived.

  • ZDale says:

    So where does a woman who wants to date a FtM go? I can’t seem to get connected.

  • Mike Fitz says:

    I have an ad on a W4W site and have met a few queer women who are interested & interesting-my ad states right on it that I am transgender and I have my photo up so they know what I look like.

    I prefer to date queer women and the one site that I have had success with happens to be a W4W site.

  • Marcus says:

    Obviously the biggest problem here is that gender is still seen as male or female. Transgender or gender queer people of the world are still forced to define themselves as either male or female regardless of what their body looks like or how they feel inside. I am a trans guy, I prefer to present as male but I also appreciate and indulge my female side as well. While I have no interest in existing as a conventional woman, there are parts of my soul that are definitely more feminine than masculine, (again as defined by tradition and culture). I am a guy who loves a lot of the “boy stuff” but also has a crafty lady and a thrifty shopper sharing this body. Why isn’t there is a place where someone can just talk about WHO they are without having to define WHAT they are? If that was the case maybe people could open their minds and learn to LOVE someone they might never have dated. Sure you know what you’re looking for but if the package it comes is the only thing keeping you from it….

  • Aaron J says:

    I posted on the M4W before and had no luck (I was honest about myself). So than I posted on the W4W and got a few responses from some bi girls…one whom I have been with for over 2 yrs now.

  • Jamie says:

    I think it’s inappropriate for FTM guys to post in a W4W forum intended for women. If you are FTM you identify as a male in terms of gender, so no matter what your sexuality is ie what you’re attracted to, you should only be posting on M4W or M4M forums.

    Otherwise it’s a bit creepy, like you’re posing as someone you’re not, with intention to mislead the other unsuspecting party.

    Not a gentleman thing to do at all.

  • FTM Daddy says:

    If I were to follow your thinking you’re saying FTMs should not have the privilege to date until they pass super well and they should only date straight women or men? That is total nonsense. What’s next – you have to have a phallo before you’re a ‘complete man’? What if you don’t WANT a phallo? Does that make me less of a FTM? One word for you man – DIVERSITY.

    There was a time when I would post in WFW — like when I first started transition and did not pass well. I was ALWAYS honest about my FTM status in my ad because it was important for my new date to know where my head was right away. I would not masquerade as a lesbian but I still APPEARED to look like one not matter how unhappy I was about it.

    I also posted there occasionally later because I wanted to date a queer woman – not a straight woman. I am not straight and did not want a straight partner. Had there been a “queer” section or better yet a “FTM” section I’d have MUCH rather posted there but alas — most internet dating sites have not progressed to that level of diversity yet.

    Just because a FTM wants to date a woman it does not mean he ID’s as straight; he might ID as queer. On the other hand some FTM’s do consider themselves straight and some straight women might be interested in that. Just because a queer woman dates an FTM it does not make her straight. It will most likely make her ID challenged many people because they only see the outside wrapper of the relationship – but like the world around us there is DIVERSITY in the FTM, queer woman, lesbian, gay, queer man, and bi communities. There are queer woman in the W4W sections who like FTMs and as long as there are FTMs and queer woman who meet up successfully then people will post there.

    I think if the said FTM posting on a dating site IDs as straight and expects his female partner to be in a straight role it would be very inappropriate to post in a W4W section. He would best be suited to a M4W section to find a more suitable match. However, if he is queer and is looking for a queer relationship with a queer woman – W4W might be the place to find a woman into the idea. If he went to the W4W section and never found a woman interested in him he would not post there anymore. It’s not for you or me to decide or judge and quite frankly I can’t imagine anyone ever being so knowledgeable about where each and every FTM is coming from to think I was qualified to police the topic.

    Diversity — the world is not black and white man — it’s in full living techno colour.

  • FTM Daddy says:

    The first part of my previous comment reads a bit confrontational. I don’t mean it like that at all – I mean it in a thought provoking way. Not an aggressive way – guess I could have worded it better! Sorr’eh!

  • omnomnom says:

    This may just be me, but all of you who are saying if you are an FTM you absolutely identify as 100% male in regards to gender; isn’t that a bit naive? We who have to fight for understanding in a world that can only comprehend binary categories should be a bit more flexible. The argument that gender and sex are two separate and not necessarily congruent things is often used to help explain our situation to non trans people, and yet I think its relevant within our community for understanding and appreciating trans-diversity and gender non-conforming people as a whole.

    Ultimately, we chose how to present our identities to others, and no one’s experience is exactly the same as any one else. One person who chooses to adopt the label of FTM may go through all the transitional steps as another FTM identified person, but they may not have the exact same concept of their personal gender identity. An FTM person may feel they have a completely, mostly, or somewhat male gender identity; the key being that they feel it enough to wish to live in some way as male, usually meaning they want their physical appearance to become more congruent with their personal ideal of what is it is to be male. These boundaries between what is genderqueer, what is trans, etc. are user defined. Obviously there are some basic universal points that most people with each label experience, but there’s room for overlap.

    Whether or not any FTM is going to post in a W4W area is going to be up to that person and what they are comfortable with. The important thing is to be safe, and to be honest. No one has to respond to the ad if they don’t like it, and more than likely if that particular community really has a problem with it, they’ll probably vocalize it.

  • Shayne says:

    So where do u go if you are a queer woman who wants to date a transguy??

  • ace says:

    a couple ppl already asked this but i’ll add– where do queer women go to meet transmen? or, what if you are genderqueer but more often female-presenting (as i am)? as many ppl already pointed out, there is nowhere else for transmen to go– same goes for queer women.

    what really angers me is that i will sometimes hear transguys say that they want to date queer women but then if a queer woman expresses interest in wanting to date transmen then she is a “chaser” or fetishizing because she wants to date transmen and not cismen. i just want to scream, “seriously, is your internalized transphobia so bad that you can’t accept that some women are actually attracted to you because of who you are?” transmen aren’t cismen and that’s a good thing because gender is so varied for so many people. i like that there are all kinds of men (and women and ppl who don’t identify as either) in the world, not just one type, it just happens to be i’m not sexually attracted to cismen but i am to transmen.

    when i was 18 i identified as a lesbian and my first college crush was this totally hot person who i became friends with– and found out was trans. it didn’t change how i felt about him though it was a few more years before i gave up the “lesbian” label. and that was a personal choice because i agree with warren and jay who earlier stated some lesbians wants to date transmen. it’s not fair for anyone to define for them what “lesbian” means to them just because it has some dictionary definition. most of us don’t fit into dictionary definitions.

    and to get back to the original question– i don’t know exactly where to go if you are a queer woman looking for a transman but i think forums like this are a good start. 🙂

  • Joshua says:

    @ZDale, Shayne and ace: Check out the links under FTM Dating Networks on this page. Hope that helps!

  • Nick says:

    Definitely not. Actually, I feel guilty a lot of the time because my girlfriend of 7 years met me when I was still trying to suffocate this aspect of myself, and I was just grudgingly saying I was a lesbian. So she’s been with me through a lot of stuff, and realizing that I’m not just an excessively masculine girl has been a little hard for her.

  • girl9999 says:

    thought i might offer a perspective from the other side…

    …as a femme-id’d cis girl who dates butches, trans guys, and cis guys (what can i say, i <3 masculinity!), i've actually found that trans guys have replied MORE when i post for a butch in w4w (i know right?) or when i post for a ftm in w4w, then when i post for a trans guy in w4m.

  • Kyo says:

    It’s complicated – I can say outright that I would never degrade myself by calling myself a woman in anyway, posting under w4anything would feel like that to me. Cis boys and cis girls who were into butch girls nd femme boys respectively would and should be chased off. On the other hand, I totally get that there is kinda a safe space in the les community for ftms. The problem I’ve run into specifically is zero place in the gay community – gay men treat me majorilly with contempt. And I’ve heard similar stores from gay mtfs about the lesbian comunity. It’s just frustrating. Being a gay identified transboi, not yet passing terrifically… I guess I’m lucky because I’m not looking for a real relationship, but dammit getting laid is just impossible.

  • Danny says:

    Well considering they do not have a t4w section on most sites and that heterosexual women are 9 times out of 10 completely against dating transmen where else would you post? m4w is meant for bio males looking for bio females unless they have a t option it makes no sense to post anywhere but w4w with ftm in the subject line. I don’t mind dating lesbians, I am part of the GLBT community too. They know I am not a lesbian and if they don’t as my gf doesn’t mind then what is the problem? As long as they are accepting of you there should be no reason to be so judgemental. I have no reason to post an ad considering I am engaged but I do think it close minded to say that one must post in m4w which to me doesn’t much make sense as you won’t get replies if you’re completely honest. While on the subject I also hate when transguys go stealth…I would never pretend to be someone I am not. I am a transman and I am proud of that. I have identified as lesbian in the past and have studied the glbt community for years it saddens me that we all have our own agenda and none of us on the same page. Gay, Lesbian, Bi and Trans need to come together if we are ever going to get any rights because the division in the community is what hurts us the most. How can we expect to be treated equal outside of our community when we try so hard to dilute any link within our community? Just food for thought…

  • Saren says:

    I’m a non op ftm and I’ve always been involved with straight or bi women. I dated lesbians and not only was i not what they were looking for in bed, somehow them trying to “eat me out” was unappealing.

  • Joshua says:

    I would like to remind commentators that the question in the poll is what would YOU do, not how do you judge others’ choices in this situation. Lose the judgment, folks!

  • damien says:

    uhh.. no. considering i see myself as a man I wouldn’t say that I’m a woman looking for a woman. I’d rather have someone who sees me as male

  • Sebastian T says:

    Personally I would post somewhere else because I don’t yet have the “equipment” to pleasure a woman and I wouldn’t want to mislead anyone. Perhaps I’d post women seeking men with a message that I’m a transguy and not a cisguy but since the trans world is so new to most people I’m guessing most women are not cool with dating a transguy. I would be most comfortable on a site for the GLBTQ community.

  • IC says:

    Never, ever, ever.

  • J says:

    I got rid of this issue by posting for bisexual women only. Someone who is into both males and females is the safest. I now look male over 90% of the time, but I am not going to get bottom surgery. I got rid of a lot of complications about sexual identity by going for people who are more blind toward genitalia.

  • G says:

    I’d rather post on a site that had M4M or T4M and T4T options. I couldn’t face the idea of pretending to be female when I know I’m really a guy on the inside. If I posted a W4M ad, imagine the sheer horror if the guy who responds is straight and temperamental! It would NOT go well for him to find out that I am actually a dude. I say this while I am pre-everything.

  • Ben says:

    I wouldn’t post under women seeking women, because I would be falsely representing myself. I would post under women seeking men, but if contacted, would clarify my trans status. Our local alternative weekly newspaper (more liberal), also has “women seeking ?” and
    “men seeking ?” columns, and “men seeking trans” and “women seeking trans”.

  • Lane says:

    I have posted in w4w and also answered ads there requesting dates with “Butches, Bois and FTMs” so to me this is as useful of a way to get a date/chat as any. Just state clearly who you are and who you want, and like others have said, know the site and audience. I posted as Male on one site and saw later I had tons of views by gay men, but zero women. I went back to w4w and got many replies.

    I have been involved in many discussions re diversity and labeling and I say this: I label myself in these kinds of ads all over the place- it is my place to do so. The reason I do this is in personal ads specifically is not because I like labels- ech hardly!- it is to accurately inform the reader who I am. If I want to date women, I feel it is imperative to state that I am queer, transgendered, male i.d.’ed and pre transition but passable- the person who doesn’t accept me as this or relate to my language is not who *we want to date. I’m getting too old to be misunderstood anymore or live a false life, I am old enough to state and know my needs and desires, wherever I must state them in order to be most effectively heard.

  • Justin says:

    I know w4w is informal but I wouldn’t use the marker (“W”4w). believe w4w was used in this case because transmale however abbreviated is obscure and may not fetch many responses. Online dating is not favorable to me for that reason and because people can grossly misrepresent themselves to me.
    I like to use M4M but I understand why that can be much of a challenge. I would settle for Transmale or better yet Stealth 4 Woman. Why? Because either is a fair representation of what you should expect (if educated) so you are better prepared – but I don’t online date.

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